Digital Television Transition, Analog, Over The Air, And FTA Discussion
By nighthawk • Feb 10th, 2008 • Category: ArticlesWell I have questions about this whole array of topics, and from reading through a variety of threads here at RowanReview.com, it’s apparent to me that others do too.
Hopefully this discussion will give us all a chance to voice our questions and opinions, and receive informative answers from people with knowledge and experience on these issues.
I for one have been worried that our local Television Station will be forced to go digital, and if so, then I won’t be able to watch the local call in show anymore.
I’m not going to upgrade my trusty old analog set (or vcr for that matter) with the manual (rotary) fine tuning adjustments to rely upon a high-tech piece of junk that will only receive a preprogrammed exactly on frequency station… And I will not settle for something that says “NO SIGNAL” just because I’m in a fringe area of reception.
At least with my analog set I can fine tune for the best picture and sound and not have the TV lie to me by flashing “NO SIGNAL” upon the screen.
I know that for the thousands out there who can afford to pay the outrageous price for cable, be it a local wire system, or wireless cable like DirectTv or Dish Network, this may be of very little concern, but I can’t see throwing the money away on those services when I can pull the channels right out of the air for free.
Plenty of Movie channels to watch over the internet too, so I just don’t need cable service, nor want to pay for somebody else to decide what channels I can receive over their wire or wireless cable system.
Comments Leading to this discussion:
- nighthawk on
February 10, 2008
9:42 pmOn the FTA discussion;
Is anyone else having trouble getting under the DishNet sat for Galaxy 10R or Echostar 5?
Is there some kind of trick to it? or is my LNBF just going bad or too old (1995 model LNB for KU band)?
Maybe I’m just too close to the tree line?But whatever I try, Dishnet overpowers my set and I end up with NASA and ANGEL, besides the 8 24/7 Dish promo stations.
- nighthawk on
February 10, 2008
9:55 pmWell, I called it a FTA discussion, but it’s sorta loose knit all over the board, in different threads and such.
Maybe a good time to begin a DTV/Open-Air/FTA discussion? - nighthawk on
February 10, 2008
10:05 pmForgot the 1 elspanglish radio station that comes in as a freebie.
- enforced voluntary compliance on
February 10, 2008
10:29 pmyou need a tempeture stable digital universal LNBF if using most FTA recievers USALS or DiSeq 1.1 or 1.2 and such is also best as polarity switching is not done by servo motor on most All band setups now. Instead piggy back your analog reciever on the digital and just use it as a positioner if you must. Ther are disscussion boards on these issues that cover non local problems besides the trees issues.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
(this answer does not apply to tv OTA(over the air)antenna but TVRO tv receive only allband dish)
G 10R 123′W(C band analog/digt. receivers is/was G9 by the way) http://www.lyngsat.com/galaxy10r.html
Issues could include Circular verses Vertical/Horizontal polarity. I have not seen a LNBF that will do both without installing a Dielectric Plate for Circular Lh-Rh verses V or H.
You could also have a dish with some sidelobes out of parabolic. Do a string test to see if
3 or more strings across the center indicate warpage if they dont touch but a smaller solid dish may work better with the 2degree spacing on sats these daze:
~$500 plus drive to save shipping
http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Order/Satellite-systems/C-Band-Satellite-System.htm
just one possiblity:
examples of “in the clear channels possible w/positioner and all band bigger dish (4ft or bigger gennerally)
Free Digital Sat channels
of course there are still a few analog religous channels and “wild feeds” or network syndication feeds going on C-band (and DVB Ku)
February 11th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Try that again:
Free digital channels
February 11th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
I have one of the old 8′ fiberglass C band dishes that I would have to order the LNB for and reassemble. The box that I have is supposed to be switchable between C and KU bands, but for now I have a small KU band dish brand dish that’s about 15 years old. It still pulls a signal but DishNet seemingly overrides everything…
I don’t think it’s a circular polarization LNBF, but it most certainly could be it’s alignment as it’s not been used in around 10 years (until recently) and made it through the tornado and a few Ice storms of years past.
I have a newer KU (Brand New Condition) dish that’s missing the LNBF and might try and swap it over and give it a try with that older LNBF before investing in a new dish.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
With FTA-Sat DTV you need at least a oval offset dish that is 36″ from top to bottom, bigger is better for rainfade. The old 8ft dish may not have the correct mesh for KU band embedded in the fiberglass. Ku mesh is a finer smaller hole than just C-band TVRO, that most were.
There are supposedly some all in one satboxes available that have the 8VSB terrestial antenna tunner as well as the DVB digital sat tuner, kinda like what VOOM tried and failed at. I have one of those boxes someone gave me and it works but is not good with any reflected signal, aggggrivating to ww atch ch it sttt ttuder or go out when the slightest wind blows. I have seen a guy with a 30ft pipe up and a small antenna downtown that gets 56 (dtv4); WKYT 27(dtv13) and 36/18 39/40dtv plus KET36/15 and ION67/21 but not 61/7dtv-beattyville
11channels counting the .2s &.3s if any
he has a preamp with no FM trap and that may be knocking anything down/interfering 7-13 some but with DTV you cannot see the wavvy gravvy of FM interference so it is better to trap it out just in case.
He says it is more TV than he has time for but it does hiccup. And he cannot get 56analog if the DTV isn’t co-operating
February 11th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
This guy has inexpensive lowtemp old style LNBs that the po’folks use in central america, they dont spend $400 when $40will do it.
(this is for piggyback of digital on analog setup dishes or for newer 4D-TVcombo c-band the
polarity will be the old servo type not DiSeq
# BSC2011 from DMS is the cheepest 15-17degree that works:
look at this guys mutifeed setups whako but works
http://www.global-cm.net/
look just like the old “Primestar” oval dishes I have see people make signs for stuff out of.
Probably terrible for rain/cloud fade
February 11th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
I was going to use a switch for the old 8′ dish to receive C band only… I know it’s going to take a lot of space for a few extra channels, but the children & wife enjoy the entertainment.
I don’t know if there’s a C/KU band combo dish/LNBF that I can get at a low enough price to make it worth my time and effort. So I figured I’d just order up the LNB for the old C bander and put her up somewhere out of the way.
My oldest son says it might cause a conflict, but I’m going to use a switch on it, so I can’t imagine any conflict between dishes.
February 11th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Should have said I wasn’t aware… but I missed your post while I was typing my last comment.
February 11th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Some DiSeQ switches I have seen even have a switch for antenna SO you could get one that has LNB 1,2,3 and Antenna;
on SOME FTA receivers there is a menu to switch between
LNB 1,2, Burst A Burst B and so you can add a custom programmed sat position that turns off LNB A or1(KU) and sends voltage to LNB 2 (c band) even if its on a different dish (ground em good) these work on 13/17volt switching polarity so you will have to use the FTA reciever to switch polarity if you piggy back the C band this way, that might get complicated for the Mrs. to deal with 3remotes to pull up one C-band channel (or set of channels if all vertical or all horizontal)
http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Order/LNBFS/C-Band-LNBF.htm
There are 2 DiSeq combo LNBf Ku/C types available here that you will have to determine which will work for your theorised setup…
February 11th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
All this Sat talk is not for the average apartment dweller that won’t even be allowed to hang out the window a flat HDTV dipole or small preamped yagi for free DTV…
Cable is bucking duel carriage for the next 3yrs for analog channels (wont’ apply much around here supposedly)
But we wont get CSPAN6 anytime soon either LOL?
http://rowanreview.com/2008/02/10/television/#comment-9075
“dual must carry”
February 11th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Just noticed this for those that still operate under the Analog is dead delusion:
…he and the others were united in an effort to make sure viewers don’t wake up to a blank screen Feb. 17, 2009, when many stations will cease broadcasting in analog. Low-power and Class A stations, those that serve rural areas and foreign language communities, will continue to transmit in analog for the foreseeable future.
http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/dtv_players_champion_converter_0211/
There is a bit of a digital rebellion going on for several years amoung cell phone users, we will see how this is managed amoung those addicted to something thats been compaired to the heroin hook that is TV.
DTV in its 60frames mode was found to give some folks headaches? When studied 10yrs ago.
Network TV has already lost 25% of its viewers from the Writers strike.
I really like DTV when it works, when it locks up it is nice to have the analog to default to even if you miss the “Wings” with floating rotating graphics;
Why use red if they know it is gonna flicker and flash??
February 11th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
I am really not holding my breath but just you wait on the DBS sat provider commercials really hammer on this by showing some granny type kicking her TV & bending up rabbit ears after her flat screen tv just keeps doing the” mm max hed he ead dr Headroom” thang.
Seriously many may find that they get a more reliable signal from either DTV12 (WYMT) or 13 WOWK(soon) OR WKYT without a amp rather than with a amp THAT does not have a FM trap.
PRE-amps that do not have FM traps are just about useless and placing a FM trap at the antenna might work but the BALUN for 300ohm “twin lead” to 75ohm coax drops the signal before it gets to the trap & amp AND is yet another connection to corrode/get water into.
A LOT of newer antennas are rigged to 75ohm right on the driven element hookup so that helps. SOME amps are designed to use the voltage from the DBS reciever so you don’t need a seperate power supply BUT this is a all your eggs in one basket if some power spike takes out your sat reciever you have no power to the ‘tenna amp and zero tv. I prefer or want a preamp with seperate UHF &VHF inputs but one 75ohm output and for DTV right now, less than 18-20db amplification (50-$75+) to avoid noise that will degrade the “quality” of the signals you do get reliably.
ALSO a remote Antenna rotator ($75)
at least $40-$199
for a all band antenna
and a seperat UHF antenna
KET uses thos 8bay dipole double stack “cat whisker”/ “chicken wire” or “Bed spring” antenna that goes by alot of knick names and works out ot about 60miles line of sight. A loooong Yagi
might do ok if you have the newest tuner with the 6th generation equalizers for reflected signal rejection on hot signals other wise it is a “A-B” switch for really strong signals and a seperate antenna or “rabbit ears” for say ION 67/21 & KET 38/15
February 11th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
I don’t know what LNBF I have but it’s off an old Dish Network set that I had in the mid 1990’s. And all it will recieve is basically Dish Network birds, or so it would seem…
The Channels that I do get for free are all Vertical polarization except for 1 Round signal, maybe that’s the spanish radio station.
When I go for Galaxy 123W, if I get a signal at all it can be up to 70% but in the red instead of green with only about 25% quality Maximum, but quality is jumpy from ~9% to ~25%.
I’ll be happy with at least NASA and SKY ANGEL until the weather breaks a little bit.
The dish itself is only about 18″ reflector area, 19″ overall.
It should pull in 123W, but I’ve been all over the yard with it —- I mean literally all over the yard doing 360s and the like, but Echostar seems to be dominant or something.
Did they manufacture an Echostar only LNBF or something?
Almost makes me want to tie it to my old puter or something if Echostar birds are jamming my reception. Not that I’m going to, but it helps to know that I could without any modification to either piece of hardware.
February 11th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
LOL on that TV commercial comment. Beverley Hillbillies style…
Granny kicks the tv and bends up the rabbit ears as Mr. Driesdale holds his chest… Enters Uncle Jed and Jethro from a hunting, and Jed says “Whatta you all worked up about Granny?”
Granny replies “It’s that confounded television set again!”
Jed says “Don’t worry yourself about that Granny, Jethro and Me, Well we can have that fixed in no time cant we Jethro?”
BOOM!
Scene cuts to Jethro holding shotgun, TV parts all over the room, and Ms. Jane calling 9-1-1 for Mr. Driesdale who’s just died from a heart attack… Not from the gunshot, but over the money he has invested in the Digital Television Stations.
February 11th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
1 Comment Moved to
The Talk About Anything Page
February 12th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
It was the LNBF/Dish sorta…
Dish Network (older) dishes are wide angle capable of receiving up to 5 sats from one position. Just had to go in and set the receiver up for a wide-span dish.
Still going to need another dish or two to get all free feeds.
February 12th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
So you are saying the “older” Dish-network(how old) are multi-lobe/circular instead of parabolic? I knew those wide oval shaped primestar dishes were “torridial” I think is the term. The newer multi-feed DBS subscription Dish500s are almost too small for the service people pay for. I saw one multi-feed over off 32 in flemming co. that is mounted what lookslike upsidedown with the LNBs on a straight stick bouncing off for the west sat feeds, I have also seen some flatpanel /synthetic parabolic? that I heard of used in Japan 10yrs ago, just put it in a south facing window and adjust the angles? The one I saw around here was facing west mounted on the peak of a gable end.
ANYWAY this thread could better be helpfull if it went toward OTA DTV reception as there are a gazillion forums on line on that FTA / hacking DBS type stuff.
For cheepskates or those that want to add more OTA channels to view than are on DBS or even cable in our area there are unique problems to deal with that we could brainstorm on /share ideas and equipment sources and such. That is my perspective anyway. The FTA setups out there are pretty well assembled to be reliable except in KU fade from rain/heavy clouds
February 12th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
This is a parabolic, circular, round dish that could be converted into a “directional” dish by placing the LNBF in the center of the metal parabolic dish. The angle of the LNBF is offset in other words.
So what I had to do is go into it (the dish setup menu) and create a Fake Bird with H, V, and R polarization, Set for KU and enter the frequency ranges for the Birds it is catching…
I don’t know of any other way to describe it as I went out of the satellite business back when we had rotary knobs for skew, and you could actually hear relays go “clunk” when you had to push a button.
But you know what? You are right about this thread! It should be geared more around DigitalVision (HDDTV and DTV) Antennas, Receivers, and Reception.
I sure don’t want to sit around and have to figure out how to program a “Fake Bird” into a SATV receiver (again). I’d much rather have the things the old way where you just aim the dish and turn a few knobs on the receiver.
Only thing is, now I have to relearn everything that I thought I knew about how television works.
Why can’t they just put the digital signals over the subcarriers of the existing analog stations?
February 13th, 2008 at 12:01 am
I know why you’re asking now, so let me grab some free time to make a climb so I can read the data tags and maybe we can translate those into an exact year.
It’s apparently parabolic shaped to the eye, but multi-lobed underneath the paint like coating.
February 13th, 2008 at 1:06 am
This is likely a surplus of old dishes that Dish Network had an overrun on or something, because I bought the whole system, had it installed, and programmed back around 1995 all “On SALE!” for ~$300… It come from the Cranston area (P.B.A.A.B!)
and the guy even wrote his telephone number and business name on it for “FREE” without my permission, and with a big black Sharpie Flat Point too.
So if Mr. Perkins is on here maybe he can tell us what kind of DISH he was selling back in the 1990’s around 1995.
The only data tag I can find is on the outer cover for the LNBF.
It Reads:
Dish Digital LNBF
B5CHB4P10 Lot No: E7D
Made in Japan
I’m sure that there may be other numbers on the LNBF itself, but I don’t want to remove the plastic housing while it’s raining.
As for the dish itself, It says “Dish”, not a 300 or 500 or anything along those lines, just a plain old “Dish” logo. I haven’t found data tags on any of the smaller dishes, but I know that there is a difference in them.
February 13th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Well, what I meant by circular vs. parabolic is the surface of the dish.
Some reflectors are circular or elliptical and not parabolic;
Offset feed or not.
I tried to make a circular c-band alumnium window screen reflector for the yard years ago where you move the LNA/block converter on a post or trypod and not the dish,( barely got any signal and gave up)
Torridial is the current term for reflectors with a wide lobe that is somewhat circular and elliptical I suppose and somewhat parabolic for a mutifeed reflector…
February 15th, 2008 at 11:34 am
I haven’t tried this but I would guess that on some of the LH RH circular polarity LNBf it would be fun to see if sawing or breaking out the divider in the throat of the feed horn would allow it to be used as a Vertical/Horizontial feed for FTA?
who nose it might be more sensitive since it was designed for the really smaller dishes, so put it on a FTA dish and perhaps those signals will be banging in? If anyone has the time to play with such, I doubt I will…
BUT I digress, Digital OTA for WLEX has been wiggin out for me again, on analog I can see some ionosperic skip is likely the culpret as the weather and such allowing other DTV39signals to skip in and interfere, without analog I would not have had a clue what it was. Same thing with the neighbors old car that need new suppression wires, on analog I hear the thing going up the hill, zzzz ZZZZZZZZ in especially VHF channels on DTV it just locks up by co-incidence, seems to be the culpret anywho…
February 15th, 2008 at 11:40 am
But still… Why don’t they just embed the digital signals into the subcarriers of existing analog stations?
This would give people the choice to keep their old TV without having to buy the converter. If the people wanted the digital stations, they could connect a subcarrier decoder box.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
I guess it’s because po’folks like me can pick up an old analog set for between $5-35 depending upon the size and or condition at a Flea Market or Yard Sale.
Tv manufactures afraid that they will run out of customers if folks aren’t FORCED to switch?
February 15th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Lobbyists, lobbying the elected ones to pass legislation that requires a mandatory switchover, of course paying to sell folks on the idea that the Government can raise capitol by auctioning off the old spectrum, or at least parts of it?
And all this time we thought we were electing senators and congressmen who would do what is best for the people, WE.
It’s not about better television, better reception or even a better picture…
It’s about selling television sets or converter boxes.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
It is a law created so Television Manufactures can sell more Televisions at a higher price… no?
The world is overpopulated with Television sets, ant it’s hurting the TV manufacturing industry.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Not only that! It is a law created to FORCE all the people to buy an new TV or an OVERPRICED converter box.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Anyone up to toying around with a DIY digital converter? I’m ready to clean the rust off my soldiering irons.
Just have to watch and not charge the antenna with too much lp-signal for pull.
February 15th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
well I have to say that the picture is way better than sat has been or cable or antenna, when it workes, IF you view the signal converted to view on a older glass tube set . . .
The common LCD/, flat panels have conversion artifacts from image processing that I just aint used to yet or satisfied with to purchase. There are so many tuners/converters with so many different features I can’t find one with all the features a antenna viewer wants or needs. LIKE: the program guide that shows the evenings upcomming grid; a channel signal level meter for aiming the antenna/rabbit ears. (with a quality rating would be nice)
The old VOOM sat boxes that have the 8vsb module in them have a signal meter that you can select channel by channel to scan for and as the signal goes above its threshold it changes colors to green for a lockable signal. BUT this was a 2nd gen chipset that has a horrible refected signal rejection filter/equaliser and is not as good as the Magnavox DVD/vcr SDTV box you can get (mine just died after 8weeks and it was plugged into 2 emf/Spike filters.
So I “upgraded” to a RCA that has the “info” button for the guide and it is lame and the tuner aint as good.
February 15th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Oh yeah that RCA EDTV tuner DVD/VCR box glitches out/locks up about every two weeks and has to be reset to get it to tune in a signal. SO I plugged it into my FmTuner Amps switched aux power plug so I could shut off the power by remote from the couch and reset the clock just incase I decide to record something by timers , boy that aint agggrivatin at all; and it messes with the info button info if the clock aint set you get a inaccurate time on the program you are watching but its all good…
February 15th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Well overpriced tuner box is relative isn’t it.
I was considering a 5thgen updated settop with supposedly a complete program guide for $169 last fall before I went thru this musical DVD/vcr swaparound after my trusty Hitachi $99 deck died after 8-9years.
(By the way the combo DVD/VCRs(like magnavox) that have seperate analog outputs are better than the ones that don’t, displaying a upconverted picture that depicts what will be burned on the DVD in combo units.
The LG/Koreans bought Zenith’s reciever technology that Sinclair broadcasting colaborated on because alot of their stations were in hilly areas and the reflected signals were a major problem for the 8vsb and Sinclair wanted the CODFM circuits in the tuner boxes so broadcasters could choose what DTV modulation did the best in their particular topograpy or market.
THis helped to delay the switchover. Alot of ignoramous bloggers are griping (paid or not) that the analog shutdown is long overdue without seemingly ANY inkling of the issues. They get their few locals ok so everbody should unless they is ignart hillbillies, kinda reminds me of alot of the nerd herd mentality, that gets aggrivated if you don’t know how to work some complicated piece of software and superdouper unobtainium gigablitz processor you is a neandertal defective type not worth their time; then they get the blue screen o death and cuss and throw stuff LOL do I have to hold back the giggles when that has happend in front of me.
February 15th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
At lower power levels there may be less of a reflected signal problem, and that may be why some New York stations are experimenting with a array of lower power stations on the same or close ly spaced channels.
For the same power levels (wattage) a DTV signal is recieable out to a greater distance.
SO for eample a 1watt DTV signal may get out as far as say a 7-10watt signal, or for the big station 30,thosand watts equals a similar coverage area as say 300-500thousand watts; the energy conservation crowd loves that idea BUT if there are less than 15% of the viewers getting the signal this way some would argue that even that is a wast of electricity, (especially considering alot of the junk that is supposed to be entertainment.)
February 15th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
…The request grew out of a concern that only a handful of digital-to-analog converter boxes that qualify for the Commerce Department’s National Telecommunications & Information Administration (NTIA) $40 reimbursement coupon have the ability to pass through NTSC signals. LPTV stations, TV translator stations and Class A stations have just begun their DTV conversion and will continue to transmit analog television for the foreseeable future. With no analog pass through, the converter boxes will add a layer of complication for consumers if they wish to continue viewing LPTV, translator and Class A stations.
In a letter to David Rehr, president and CEO of the National Association of Broadcasters (NAB), as well as the heads of the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA), National Cable & Telecommunications Association, Consumer Electronics Retailers Coalition and the Satellite Industry Association, Martin asked for full-power broadcasters “to voluntarily partner with low-power stations and clear their signals to the extent they have excess digital capacity.”
Hold yur breath If you want?
http://broadcastengineering.com/newsrooms/lptv_station_coming_dtv_0215/
February 16th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
But… What about the subcarriers?
Couldn’t they just use the subcarriers of the existing analog stations to send the digital packets?
I know that some FM radio stations run subscription feeds like elevator music, and music for Dept Stores over their subcarriers. Even some stereo stations manage to do that…
That is to say that I can see how the colorburst signals may occupy 3 or so of the sub carriers… but digital transmission is packet transmission isn’t it? requiring less bandwith (narrowband transmission, with all the information encoded at transmission, and decoded at reception, within the receiver).
So,
Wouldn’t there already be room for both analog and digital over the existing frequency spectrum? requiring only a decoder/converter box for dtv/hdtv?
It just sounds like a way for corporations to sell a bunch of new television equipment to me.
February 16th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Yeah this sells alot of TVs but you don’t need a new TV just a good 6th generation chipset tuner built into a VCR/DVD burner or a stand alone tuner
built with all the transistor equalizers to zap that reflected signal problem;
said to soon be$40-50 for a cheaper one ($170 on the higher end still?)
On Analog TV there is also a second audio program channel in addition to stereo, this is similar to what used to be on FM subscription music, now, with hi-def FM the FM stations are using up the spacing between “channels”, esentially. ON a spectrum anaylizer the fm signal used to look like a “l” or a really thin upsidedown V. see this wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio#Bandwidth
for how complicated the HD fm radio signal is now. The range is said to be less as well AND it used the CODFM modulation that UK DTV is using so it is less suseptable to the reflected signal problems of 8VSB being that HDFM is receivable in cars?.
A old analog TV signal on a spec analyser looks like 2 spikes
a big
“l” for AMvideo & a little “i” for the audio FM carrier 4.5 Mhz higher
now 8VSB looks sorta like a wide ” h ”
with the spike of the h being the “pilot” carrier and the data bandwidth
taking up all the space and then some of the 6Mhz channel that the analog had . The newer bandpass filters (shortage of those) allows for channels to be next to each other where analog did not.
Like in Huntington or Cincinatti, channels were spaced apart.
ch 5 9 and 12 or
3 8 13; with digital they can be
right next to each other as is the case
with 39 &40 the RF channels of 18 & 36
and they can use the same antenna on the same tower. Now because ION 29NTSC uses 39 up in CharlestonWV I cannot pick up WLEX alot.
got to go but short answer is
that pictures take bandwidth that FM dont.
February 16th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
this article is almost at a 6th grade level for a ’splaination of what is suposed to be so grreeat about 8vsb
http://www.broadcast.net/~sbe1/8vsb/8vsb.htm
CODFM circuitry could have been added to the set top boxes &tuners to decode any CODFM signals for $9 retail if in hilly country like pennslvania or here broadcasters wanted to choose the best or cheepest DTV modulators/excitors for single channel/carrier or multivision 8vsb.
February 17th, 2008 at 1:06 am
From that last link I get the impression that it isn’t really a digital signal at all.
It appears that instead of transmitting a series of 1’s & 0’s (binary format) via a narrow band (that you could squeeze quite a few stations into btw.) and allowing the Television or Converter “Convert” the binary code into the video and sound, they are using experimenting with a new form of ANALOG signal and just calling it digital.
February 17th, 2008 at 1:19 am
And, although I haven’t toyed with DTV, It’d be my guess that not converting the narrow band signals into binary code is what is causing the freeze-ups.
So, If I am correct about all of this, those new televisions should be Dirt Cheap, as it’s basically the same set with a new screen and different tuner which doesn’t require megs of ram or even a HD to decode binary signals into the originating signal.
Binary code could be sent at different HZ not khz or mhz, but HZ and would take up a lot less bandwidth.
Sort of like fiber-optics, and that is the direction that DTV should have went — and had it went that way, the existing analog stations could remain in service.
February 17th, 2008 at 1:27 am
With a binary conversion (actual digital) there would be no reason that the existing stations couldn’t remain on the air and broadcast a dozen or more channels over the fringes of the AM (picture) carrier and a dozen or more shorter range (local) over the subcarrier of the FM (audio) carrier.
February 17th, 2008 at 1:31 am
“sampling in the receiver is like a strobe that “catches” the signal as it passes one
of the eight amplitude levels.”
Look at figure 10& 11 again? It is AM modulated in 8 sidebands 8VSB, pulsed AM signal and when the reciever is in sync the data sample looks something like a QAM64 signal;
(yeah the last box in the diagram says “Analog upconversion”, that is referring to upconverting the RF signal from IF-(intermediate frequency) to its intended RF DTV channel (2-69 at this point unless further auctions occur)
The main advantages are said to be better transmission range for the less power but 30ft antenna height recommended would also improve the range and picture of analog signals too.
As the wikipedia article says
“The report recommended in conclusion that receivers be linked to outdoor antennas raised to roughly 30 feet (9 m) in height. Neither 8VSB nor COFDM performed acceptably in most indoor test installations. [2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8VSB#8VSB_vs_COFDM
(so why are they allowd to sell amp-ed rabbit ear set top antennas that dont work but say “HDTV optimised” with noisey 45db amps that
dont even have fm traps?LOL)
February 17th, 2008 at 1:34 am
I never could get those amped rabbit ears to work anyways, always had better luck with regular rabbit ears or a uhf loop.
February 17th, 2008 at 1:54 am
What I’m saying is if it were true digital binary conversion, one station could serve as a wireless cable system. That is if they done away with the analog stuff that is taking up all the space.
In other words I’m still seeing:
-|-|-|-|-|
Instead of:
._._._._._._._._
or:
.. . .. . . . .. . .. . .. . .. .. . . .
Do you see what I mean?
It is in reality still analog.
February 17th, 2008 at 2:07 am
And worse of all, If I can figure out how to work ~60 “channels” into one frequency, then the technology for this is only a few years down the road and people will be buying either new sets or converters for their converters within the next 10 years.
Good sets form the 1970’s are still in service at my home.
February 17th, 2008 at 2:10 am
The eggsisting analog stations could remain in service and some just might. IF existing analog stations are not interfering with reception of DTV stations then why shut them down; where they are interfering antennas bays can be redirected or signal wattage curbed to limit interference in that direction, while still serving local viewers, losing some viewers at a distance perhaps.
The ball is in the next “chief executive’s” court as he takes office before the (Full power) shutdown in exactly one year. Feb 17 2009, BTW, but as has been mentioned there are a bunch of exemptions to that shut off date. LPTV & class A (4000+ community stations) New york city’s experiments are ongoing; lots of silence from FCC on underserved area exemption permits for stations that can get non-compliant DTV signal on the air without things like PSIP encoders;
Some shortages of the tight band pass filters required to convert existing transmitters(amps) to meet the slope specs for attenuation of out of channel RF;
February 17th, 2008 at 2:10 am
I should have said range of frequencies, as a channel consists of multiple frequencies.
February 17th, 2008 at 2:29 am
Eh well my posts are dissapearing again DTV aint all thats unreliable
February 17th, 2008 at 2:35 am
I just logged in and they aren’t in moderation cue. The same thing was happening to me the other day when we were kidding about that fiber splice.
February 17th, 2008 at 2:36 am
“HDTV blur” is a common term used to describe a number of different artifacts on consumer modern high definition television sets:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV_blur
(This is one reason why I am a stick in the mud for a ole’ glass tube CRT TV)
February 17th, 2008 at 2:41 am
IF Mpeg2 is digital then 8vsb is digital as that is what you start the encoding process with but yeah 8vsb is probably obsolete as is blueray and HD-DVD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_High_Definition_Video
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc
February 17th, 2008 at 4:58 am
But, It is still utilizing the old analog transmitter/amp no matter how converted and suppressed the feed is.
…And don’t get me wrong… that old analog transmitter/amp will work just fine, but it will carry much more programming then what is being called for.
All you have to do is change that:
| | | | | | | | | |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
| | | | | | | | | |
to carry multiple binary packets, and multiple packets could be embedded into one stream of packets with a unique identifier for each one.
.. . .. .. . . .. .. . . . ..
: :: : : :: :: : :: : : :: ::
:: : :: :: : :: : :: : : :: :
:: :: : :: : :: :: : :: :: ::
Same bandwidth, multiple packets per stream if true binary going out instead of a conversion process after modulation.
You will still have the DSB spikes, but it will all consist of binary data to be decoded by the television set or converter box.
Conversion would have to occur pre-modulation, but could still come from an analog source.
I could do it with serial out from a pc with microwatts and achieve several miles using the AM carrier, simply by sending binary packets. A couple of miles on the FM carrier if line of sight (still microwatts).
Imagine the Radio Frequencies of the carrier as a rather huge fiber optics line.
The trick is converting the programming into binary format (packets) and streaming them through the modulator, transmitter and amp. The Television receiver / converter box should have the ability to tune into the correct packet stream (by unique identifier) and reconstruct the programming.
This would in effect do away with the existing analog stations, but hey–if they want to go digital then why not go all the way?
Just allow all the Television stations to carry multiple (~60 or more) channels, and in effect become wireless “free” commercial supported cable providers.
People already gripe about nothing to watch, so give them something to watch.
About 30 OTA channels from distant stations (same channel, just different bin feed) and ~60 OTA channels from local stations.
Did I mention that it might boost the amount of sponsors that could get coverage an all those “bin feeds” for the same price that is being offered for a single channel? …it would in effect be 1 channel, just with different bin (packet stream) feeds.
Of course the price for a spot might raise a little to help offset the cost of the upgrades.
Kind of like sending “datagrams” over the ham bands from PC to PC, except continuous streams of data that is converted into Video/Audio.
February 17th, 2008 at 5:05 am
Still a digital over analog carrier though whatever conversion they use.
February 17th, 2008 at 5:15 am
I wouldn’t mind investing in the type of digital converter that I described above if they ever decide to go TRUE binary stream digital.
February 17th, 2008 at 5:22 am
I know that I have jumped way off from what the current OTA-DTV/HDTV standard is… But the point is that there is a better way.
I’d really prefer that some existing full analog stations remain on air.
I like my tube (crt) screen too.
February 17th, 2008 at 10:12 am
To me even the CRT DTVs look better than flat panel the problem is EVERTHING is converted to the display resolution, that is why a analog TV looks better over all.
The new sets need some way to bypass the “upconversion” or “Down conversion” circuits to just display straight analog input? Myself I will likely be shopping for a good used ANALOG tv in the near future, I wish I had thought to go buy a new 27″ Zenith or Sony before they were phased out.
IF you get one with several inputs ( what was called a “Component TV” for a while)
You can always ad a 8vsb or whatever tuner.
Just bugs everone when you strap all your remotes to a tray to keep up with them (dont worry I copywrited and put a cancelled stamp on my design, anybody know a good honest patent attorney?(if that is not a impossible turn of phrase)
February 18th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
DUUUUHHHHHH? DTV coverage won’t live up to promises, new study says:
http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/DTV-wont-live-up-to-promises20080212/index.html
(government financial elments are motivated at the prospect of auctioning off a blocks of the spectrum)
…Another serious concern is the expectation the government is building among the public that it will be simple to continue receiving OTA digital television. “The government says, ‘Buy a converter box with an antenna,’ or, ‘Buy a DTV that needs an antenna,’” said Centris Senior VP Barry Goodstadt. “But if you don’t have a good enough antenna, it isn’t going to work.”
The study showed little continuous coverage beyond 35mi. According to Centris, the antennaweb.org model assumes the use of outdoor receiving antennas and takes into account antenna sensitivity and multipath interference. However, real-world reception depends on a mix of outdoor and indoor antennas. Centris’ own research shows that 75 percent or more of OTA TV households rely on set-top antennas. That translates into DTV coverage that will be “more limited than currently anticipated,” said David Klein, executive VP of Centris.
. . .Klein’s view, the population is being urged to buy “equipment that may or may not work” when it’s taken home, adding a trial-and-error component to the DTV transition that could leave everyone from viewers and stations to advertisers and retailers with shelves full of returned DTV items. “The reality is, if consumers want guaranteed ‘free’ TV, they will have to pay for it (in the form a subscription service),” he said.
TECHNOTE:
Since most equipment
dosent have a signal level indicator for aiming the antenna and DTV is all or nothing, most wont know that they just needed a FM trap or a bigger antenna/better amp.
February 18th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
So let me see if I understand this correctly;
After the “Cutoff Date” channel(s) like 18, 27, 38, 56, etc… will go black, right? No signal on those “old frequency blocks” at all?
Neither analog or digital signals will originate from those “old blocks” that I listed above… Am I understanding correctly?
February 18th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
That’s not a trick question or anything, as I have a legitimate for asking… I just cant figure out all this 13a or 12b stuff…
I’m sure that I’ll get the chance to play around with someones converter or new TV before too long, but for the meanwhile, and before investing in the “new reception equipment”, I need to know if the current channels will be totally black.
February 18th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
What I want to do is build some “Digital Compatible” antenna arrays, but build them to reject the “old blocks” like the now current UHF blocks.
But if the frequency blocks are going to be utilized, I need to enhance reception for those old blocks too.
February 18th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
I kind’a sort’a understand that the UHF spectrum is going to remain in use, but this chart http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/mat_dev/frequencyfinder/PDFs/KENTUCKYew.PDF
doesn’t even list WKMR and From what I understand they are operating at least 2 digital stations.
February 18th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Both pre and post amp FM traps I can do, and rather cheaply with a soldiering iron and the parts box.
But it would be nice if they have “Nailed Down” the final digital frequencies somewhere so I can cut and tune my arrays for best reception and start stacking them on the pole atop that 25′ tower.
February 19th, 2008 at 3:01 am
Stations Identify/market themselves by their longstanding Analog Channel number, the RF DTV channel is different right now and many will keep the DTV channel they are now on, for TVQ36 that is DTV 40, they market themselves as “36″ so their DTV channels scan in as 36.1 & 36.2 even with it on RF channel 40.
Channel WKYT tv is on 27 analog but on 13 for DTV it has 27.1 27.2 27.3. They are keeping 13 for DTV and Fox 56 is on CHannel 4 for DTV so NO the VHF channels are not to be auctioned as even low band is being used for DTV. There was some talk of 2-6 being auctioned. Eventually another high band of UHF say ch 51-69 may be the next to be auctioned, 69-83 are already currently either reallocated or being auctioned.
WLEX is on RF 39 but by the chart you posted will go back to RF 18, if I read the chart right, but it has footnotes on “confusion”LOL?
February 19th, 2008 at 3:24 am
WKMR is 15 for DTV & any and all .1.2.3.4 channels are there, but KET has about 12 “full power” and numerous translators. Right now I can get, by turning my 8bay UHF “chicken wire” antenna.
22.1-4 35.1-4 38.1-4 46.1-4 etc. but not reliably. 22(RF24)Pikeville, comes in many days more reliably than 38(15) and it is 9miles away. I was gonna use a set of “Digital optimised” rabbit ears but since I can see what they are doing to analog with all kinds of noise in the signal from the adjustable amps; I gave up after about an hour tring to find a sweet spot for both 67&38 where I could just reach up and hit the a-b switch to go betweek the outside antenna and the inside rabbit ears. NO LUCK (yet),dang thing needs a internal fm trap to eliminate that as a front end factor over driving the amp; 38analog is so strong it could also be overdriving a amp. SO after it gets turned off, that may improve some folks reception. I notice that in certain directions it bleeds over 36 on 2 different pre-amps i have tried. ***how many antenna viewers will go thru this much trouble to get DTV that they know is there but cannot get a reliable signal on? As I said we are in a bad area, hilly for starters; more than 35miles out; with relatively high power FM’s and other interferences possibly a factor. Ever get the feeling every ponzi skeme of the last 75 yrs was blown up and they just won’t tell us?
February 19th, 2008 at 4:10 am
Thanks for the frequencies. Now I can get out my tape measure, pipe cutter and file, along with a few other tools and at least cut a few “Tuned” arrays.
If it’s eventually going all digital, I’m going to have to at least try and run across some overruns/return pallets of converters over the next year or so.
And if Most of the existing stations are blacking out, I can modulate the main channel back on to it’s original freq and feed it into my old sets at least without any harmful RFI being generated.
I think my neighbors are already getting a kick out of watching reruns of the Duke boys and other test tapes from my old VCR anyhow (part 15 setup).
February 19th, 2008 at 4:32 am
You know I thought of that, putting out a channel by taking a hard to pick up channel and remodulating it so my neighbors could pick it up. a 1 watt ERP signal can go upto a mile as a rule of thumb, but don’t ask me if you can get away with it or for how long,
February 19th, 2008 at 4:59 am
Well, as long as it’s “Type Accepted” and isn’t causing any QRM, I’d guess that since it’s mainly intended for the purpose of extending signals to sets in your own home, that it would last until someone complains about it.
Can’t really see that happening in the locations that we live in.
It’s not like we’d be taking a computer clock and beaming a picture up to an empty satellite transponder or anything.
February 22nd, 2008 at 7:56 am
Even the most reliable signal I have 40RF fo 36dtv hiccups horribly due to ice rain and wind, glad I can jump over to analog when that’s bad. LooK ook ooks ss s Gr Grr Grre eaat Great MM MMAx Head ead d Roo Roo Room in between the jumps and freezeups. Seems like the forward error correction could be enhanced more along with a just abit more wattage and most of my bad signal days would be more watchable. Verry occasionally it seems the 36.2 weather channel looks better than the 36.1 as far as signal studder(but it starts out very low res like 640X480 or something, just good enuff to look like SDTV) I wunder if its low res is a factor for the computer in the tuners I have tried. (yeah the FTA and OTA 8vSB tuners are basically computers on the scale of a 386 at this point, some argue that eventually better processing with fix many of the reception problems.
February 22nd, 2008 at 12:29 pm
BILL for analog TV five years beyond Feb. 17, 2009, FOR SPECIAL BORDER AREAS! yeah cause they know Mexico could grant sister analog station’s license like the famous ZZtop “heard it on the X” border super power FM radio stations.
You know what is comming… “well huntinton- ashland’s poor folks are left out and so to will some appartment and restricted neighborhoods that only allow rabbit ears and no outside antennas towers.
They cant get all the signals they used to…”
http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/solis_introduces_legislation_dtv_0221/
Congressional efforts to allow full-power television stations to continue transmitting analog TV five years beyond Feb. 17, 2009, received a boost last week when Rep. Hilda Solis (D-CA) introduced legislation in the House matching legislation pending in the Senate.
February 22nd, 2008 at 11:27 pm
“While nationally the percentage of OTA viewers hovers in the 13 percent range…”
Where the heck does this woman get her numbers from?
Let’s say more like 40% Nation-Wide.
Let’s face it… At least 20% of the US population don’t even have access to a cable wire, and another 20% would rather die then pay to rent a ‘tenna wire, when they can stick a ‘tenna up on the hill by themselves at a one time fee.
I suppose she’s only taking city folk into her calculations/estimates?
February 25th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Ashland-Hunting, for example, up along the river valley, signals travel along the water from Portsmouth to Charleston a decent small outside antenna or even rabbit ears & you might get over 13-15 channels(analog, the last time I checked), with cable systems all over the place during the 1990’s penetration was 40% at best Ashland- Hunting, DSS/Dish was 25%, now that left at least 35% of the TV audience with OTA sets, not EVEN counting the housholds that have other TVs not hooked up to Dish or Cable.
BUT how does the government/industry accurately track one way reception only households? THey don’t they estimate it.
The Digital TV effort is meant to recapture some of the Broadcast TV viewers lost to cable channels and sat dishes, I think it might actually work for SOME situations but there will be lots of folks that try and quit to pick up DTV because they cannot get all the channels they once did or they wont pay a professional to install a antenna correctly to maximise what they can get reliably. SO those types will watch recorded mediums or goto paid for Dishes or cable.
A very FEW will try out FTA sat (1-5%) unless there is a local station they REALLY want, only the mega corporations will continue to dominate the airwaves, Murdock& buddies will be moulding/forming the hive mind consensus for sometime to come.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
HERE IS THE PROBLEM with this DTV transition which is being compaired to the Color and Stereo enhansments to TV of the past.
With Color and Stereo viewers could still see and hear everything just the same on their old Antenna TV sets, with DTV the signal levels paths and channels are or will be different so at any given location with similar equipment, some difference in channel receptions will likely occur, be it stations swithing bands, not just channels, FOX56 by example is swithing to RFch4 VHF SO folks with only a UHF bow-tie/8bay antenna might not get it at all, or there can be electrical interference that dosent affect UHF as bad, same with 27kyt going to 13RF.
February 26th, 2008 at 3:08 am
Is ~50. a good price on a Brand New (older) set top converter? Found a source for those.
They are small and compact. Might get a discount in quantity.
Anything (chipsets) or brand I should avoid?
Maybe I’ll get around to working on my tuned arrays shortly. would like to stack them on the pole atop the old 25′ tower and get them aligned with stations (within 75 mi or so from here) tx towers.
February 26th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
ANYthing before 2007 will not be 5th generation chipsets, more like july07 from what I have read. Older 2nd and 3rd gen chipsets even with software updates aint great with reflected signals and
the best stuff has the COMPLETE program guide not just a “info” button.
Software and features vary wildly, some have a aim antenna feature that lets you home in on a channel (if you know the correct RF channel, not the advertised channel # for many stations)
YOU must go to 30+feet to avoid the car in the driveway and other reflected
signals locking out the signal.
85% on most recievers is required to lock it in and allow for rain/weather fade. Prices I have seen for these WERE 169.-200+ but now with the coupons they are almost supposed to be free? At somepoint a combo FTA OTA and DVR will be affordable below $100 but I would plan on triing out anything and returning it until you get the best tuner. Magnavox VCR/DVDburner for ~$180 has the best tuner I have found but the one I had died at 8weeks! Took it back and traded “up” to a EDTV RCA unit and it doesn’t seem to pick up as good?
GOOD LUCK and take a deeeeeep breath, becareful of Power lines and heights!!!
February 26th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Is there a place to look on your tv to tell if it’s digital or not? What about these coupons that the government is handing out for $50.00 off a converter? How much are these things away?
February 26th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
You were talking about the high cost of cable. I totally agree it’s outrageous. But what are you to do with 99% of the shows you watch are all upper channels? Gonna have CNN, TLC,A&E,Lifetime, etc. I pay about $59.00 a month for cable here and hubby dearest gets over 200 channels for only $23.00 there. I miss some of the Spanish TV shows, Univision, etc., but what are you to do when you’re at the mercy of one company with no one to challenge their prices.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Dish Network will get you a bunch of channels for cheap, but you have to sign a contract in many cases, which is something that I’m not willing to do.
CNN, HNN, NASA, and ANGEL comes in (for free?) on a few disabled/unsubscribed Dish Network systems if you want to play around with reprogramming the box with the remote.
Or you could get yourself an FTA system and get a lot of stations as listed on this chart:
http://www.lyngsat.com/galaxy10r.html
Look for ku channels in tan with the red F for free.
I’ve found a bunch of stray/random feeds up there also, and they aren’t listed anywhere that I know of.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
As Name(required) and myself were just talking about;
You can find DTV converters for as little as $50 up to ~$200.
The $50 box would be almost free, but I would have to check one out before recommending that you spend a coupon on one.
There should be a label somewhere on your set that states that if has a digital tuner built in if it does.
But beware, words like “HDTV ready” doesn’t mean it has the digital tuner.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Are you as confused about all of this newfangled stuff as I am? …yet?
February 27th, 2008 at 12:04 am
On the government DTV Converter Coupons;
Here is a link with lots of information:
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/press/2007/DTVfinalrule_031207.htm
“If contingent funds are needed, consumers requesting coupons from these contingent funds must self-certify to NTIA that they do not subscribe to cable, satellite or other pay television services.”
February 27th, 2008 at 12:58 am
I think it finally sunk in (after you’ve told me 1000 times) LOL
I need to be looking for converters with 5th generation chip-sets.
February 27th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Well 6th generation would be preferred and or a software update was even available for the original USDigital failed wireless cable whitespace leasing idea that box cost $200 at the Mall Wart and really was bad when I got one back about 2004/5 and returned it. IT DID HAVE THE FULL program grid type guide that is great for planning what you want to watch without flipping thru the channels. UNLESS you have a rotor to go and scann in all your channels say around 7:30pm to get the PSIP parsed data in memory for the evening.
The biggest difference in the newest recievers are special equalisers the require alot more transistor(computer) power to filter out reflected signal problems(up to a points)
I certainly am NOT a licensed schooled TV enginneer but even as a somewhat informed “customer”/viewer of TV I have to wonder like someone well known around here said to me about 1 month ago after pluggin up their new HDTV
“this is gonna be all that great is it”.
THis particular guy has been playing with antennas for probably 40years or more and I had a hard time convincing him that even with his gaum of antennas on the top of a hill he needed to get above the nearby trees and ground by 30 FEET acourding to the engineers. Even if a analog channel you are able to get has no perceiveable ghosting or reflected signal since the DTV will be on a different RF channel now and/or after FEB 2009 it is no guarantee of solid reliable receptions UNLESS you get that antenna up 30ft+ AND get a very low noise less than 20db PREAMP. and low noise distribution amp in the house if needed.
While analog signals are available to use you can use them to aim the antenna for direction for the most part, at any given location BUT as I have found out the DTV optimal direction might vary a little still due to signal path and channel AND some have put their DTV on a different tower for various reasons.
February 27th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
That quote was “this is NOT gonna be all that great is it?” reffering to the guy with 40+yrs experience with TV recieve antennas
February 27th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Chipset 5 or above is now on my to do list.
Along with adding another couple sections of tower, easy enough but a job for one… just have to break out the liquid nut & bolt loosener, remove the top end of the tower, hoist new section up, struggle it into place, bolt it on, add guy wires… Do same with next section, and replace top end.
Now that should make for a fun climb and final mast and array installation
It’s not that I have trees real close, or not as to be in the way, but there is a really close tree line like at about 200 yards from me, So if I’m planning to get what I expect out of digital, I’m going to have some more work to do.
Not so much expensive, as it sounds like it’s going to be a job for me to pull get the stations that I can tune in to from reflections.
Tuners and amps are going to be what will cost me $$$ but still I’m seeing what I believe is Gen 5 for around $50. The antennas I can make and tune for the specific stations I want. Fm traps are simple enough to make out of the junk box.
The tower is free as it is already over at a friends place in storage, and he really wants me to get it out of there…
On the bright side of things, I could mount a few dishes up there and maybe catch a few extra birds.
February 28th, 2008 at 4:11 am
All things aside, I just don’t like a computer chip deciding the best picture and sound tuning for my location.
The picture displayed represents what I consider to be a good TV.
Notice the rotary channel selector and fine tuning knobs on the front of it.
Those knobs allowed you to manually adjust for the best reception in your location.
The older VCRs have push buttons instead of a rotary channel selector, but still had the manual fine tuning adjustments (for every channel).
If I could find a converter that has these features, I would be likely be happy with the Digital Television transformation.
On the old sets like the one in the picture you don’t get a blank screen with the words “NO SIGNAL” when the signal is weak. You can adjust your antenna and fine tune into any channel that shows a sign of a signal, be it audio or video… Same with the older VCRs.
My eyes and ears have been proven to be better tools for deciding the best channel tuning then any computer chip I’ve ever encountered… So far…
February 28th, 2008 at 10:47 am
“Rowan Review” shows up as number one on a google search? Good news! I’m not sure when this happened…I haven’t checked it in a while…but I find this satisfying.
February 28th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Those older rotary tuners (pre ~1997) had way more sensitive tuners to boot (on average)than the AFT(automatic fine tune) digital tuners, I did have one LXI(matsushita/korea) back about 1984 that had “fine tune” buttons on it that was pretty good, a 1987 GE vcr I had with HiFI sound did not go to blue screen and did pretty good with weak signals but it did not have the little yellow fine tune wheels for each channel position you are referring to. Those were o.k. but there are some digital-analog tuners over the years that were as good as the old rotary analog, but rare.
The way digital DTV works you cannot have a manual tuning that is useful; the tuner locks on the pilot spike in the signal and if there is enough signal, quality/low noise and low distortion(from reflection or what ever), the clock pulses line up and organized data is received to be packeted to the display(converted to the display resolution of say 720p now considered HDtv instead of EDTV?).
DTV is 480i or 480p unless I missed something and it is now EDTV? leaving Analog as “standard definition”.
We might get lucky and have 8channels of youtube quality DTV from our PBS and Commercial stations in a few years? Hense the requirement for xnumber of hours of HDTV from full power stations by the FCC to prevent slicing the pie too thin,
BUT HDTV WAS supposed to be 1080i at one point, I thought.
(1080p is basically abandoned as a OTA format and the TV’s braggin’ about 1080p resolution claim that 1080i looks better in 1080p but I’ll bet there are flicker problems called (anti-)aliasing by the graphic arts folks dealing with that for years in digital character generators used in tv production.
IF there is a menu selection to switch a display’s software to a 1080i mode when viewing OTA 8vsb that would likely give the best picture possible.
Clear as mud now ain’t hit?
February 28th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
My issues with digital is somewhat addressed here now. When people say “I had one of those…”, I can’t help but wonder “why not still have one?”…
I have several of the older Television sets, one of them being a 1974, maple cabinet, floor set, with ~a 27″ screen.
No it haint stereo or anything, but it’s a good color set that has seen 3 decades of service life with only an occasional tube replacement (easier then replacing a light bulb) about every 5 to 7 years. Can you guess where it was made? (hint: USA)
But even the later to come foreign knockoffs still had some quality to them until they made a name for themselves.
1985 or ‘86, was about the time those foreign sets had earned a good enough rep to become household words, and the sheep followed blindly by continuing to buy the latest replacement set from China or Japan.
Now they have taken over, and even if I find a Ford Philco… well it’s made in China or Mexico or somewhere.
So now FEDERAL LAW is pushing those generic foreign products on me by trying to force me to buy one… and I suppose that I will have to now.
Maybe I’ll just invest in a good old American Made front-end and remodulate those dtv signals back down to analog.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:18 am
That LXI tv I had(have) is not repairable and the last tech that tried lost the remote for me? Too many different parts not available to keep all these brands and designs working is my assesment. I have been known to use a old rotory dial tuner on occasion still. They will still show you a weak ANALOG signal when others go out or to blue screen, SO for the next 10month or so folks setting antennas up on the hill could use those to aim for initial directions of distant analog signals and then scan in the digitals?
February 29th, 2008 at 2:03 am
Did the technicians say what part(s) you need for it?
I’m more than willing to go look out in the shed and see if I have them.
If I don’t have the part(s), I have a couple of friends who may have them.
I have a 1978 GE B&W that still functions after it’s housing was melted in a house fire.
All I need is a good used housing for it.
I’ve been thinking about just building a good looking housing for it and varnishing it up to look nice and pretty.
But yes, give me a shout out on those parts, and I’ll see if I can locate them for you.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
I suppose that perhaps I shouldn’t be so irrational sounding about this Digital Television Mandate, but I for one have spent a lifetime learning to care for my belongings. It’s pretty easy to keep my old Floor Model television going and most of my heavy weight portables.
When they go down, remove back cover and replace part… Simple.
Resistor or capacitor goes bad, grab a pair of needle nose pliers, unwrap it from the mount and replace by re-wrapping new one to standoff… No soldier required most of the time.
Tube goes out, unplug it and plug a new one in it’s socket.
Now days everything is transistor and super soldier, and/or micro-circuitry with magnifying glass, reading glasses and temprature controlled soldiering/desoldiering station, or the scrap the board deals… where you just replace a board and throw the old one away.
The older ICs weren’t as bad as if/when one needed replaced, it could be removed and a socket installed… so you can easily replace it in the future if need be.
Now everything seems to be generic throw away models with micro-circuitry and my eyes just aren’t that good anymore.
That’s not even naming those double side etched circuit boards with all the micro-technology seemingly supergluesoldiered to both sides and with a black ceramic like coating over the one part that’s most likely to go bad (causing the double sided board to break when repairs are attempted).
Well enough said for now I guess.
March 2nd, 2008 at 11:10 am
One last question about the converters.
How can you tell what chipset they have?
I take it the Magnavox might be good to stay away from… No data tags, no info in manual, customer support cant answer question about what generation it is…
March 3rd, 2008 at 5:45 pm
AT LEAST… I have read some of the reviews on that only box that smallwart soon to be souper smallwart is selling… and they aren’t very positive.
http://www.afterdawn.com/hardware/reviews.cfm/4884/magnavox_tb100mw9
The link above should give you an example of what I mean.
Anyone know how to tell what gen chipset the boxes have before I buy one?
I’m like most everyone else on here and make my living one dollar at a time… and that’s few and far apart now a days… so I would appreciate the help if anybody knows;
Otherwise, I’m going to have to go out and buy a DVD unit that I already have three of (minus tuners).
March 3rd, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Need to retract something:
Make that “I did have a 1978 GE B&W that still functions…”
The tuner, come to find out, had a tag that said MEXICO.
Kiss that project goodbye.
At least the picture tube was tagged USA so I didn’t have to violate nay EPA laws by taking the sledge to it too.
March 7th, 2008 at 8:18 am
As mentioned before electrical noise from various sources can lock up a digital picture where as a analog signal might experience bands of static but still be watchable; there is a wild topic I have been researching along those lines for seveal years from time to time….
http://yowusa.com/scitech/2003/scitech-2003-02a/1.shtml
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=atmospheric+electrical+phenomenon+%22brown+dwarf%22&spell=1
March 9th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
“Official”.gov subpage on how to continue recieving analog Translators or LPTV after 2/17/09 since SO MANY BLEEEPING commercials imply there are no analog broadcasters after the “shutdown”; thousands of good tv’s will likely be just thrown away in the confusion!!!!
.gov site won’t allow copy & paste?)
https://www.dtv2009.gov/lowpower/
March 9th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Get a coupon and get a box and start playing around with that antennas or old set of rabbit ears(non amplified! if near FM stations) around Morehead one can get Ket.2 and KedKY KetED
(or KetHD during primetime.
ION and their .2-Qubo .3- IONlife .4 Worship(widescreen HD?(not) (they never do a true HD program that I have seen)
Some might get: FOXwidescreen-RFch.4
TVQ 36.1 and 247Weather is neat(low resolution)
WKYT 13.1.2.3
LEX18is abit tougher
as ION29in Huntington is on
the RF39DTV channel
Same with WYMT57 on 12DTV-RF
and WKYT27 is on 13DTV-RF so
WOWK analog might interfere now
and later when they go back to
13for DTV? UNLESS you have a good antenna with rear signal rejection or know how to hook up 2 antennas 1/4wave out of phase with a 1/4wave jumper to reject the offending signal? LOL?
March 9th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Page out of memeory?
March 17th, 2008 at 11:29 am
Does this page need a archive?
CircutCity has a Zenith(LG) box that has a better Program guide and a remote that can be programmed for your tv power and volumn it looks like 59.99 while they last. Looks better than the Magnavox version? Havent tried either one yet. 30day return policy on the zenith.
March 17th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
This thread is a continuation from the original Digital Television Discussion.
To add a comment to this discussion
click here to view the current page.
From the last couple of comments it appears that this page
isn’t functioning correctly is ready to be archived.